14 january 2008 | Raghida Dergham
Al-Hayat: Obviously I'm going to start with your visit here to the United States and your talks with president George W. Bush. You are pursuing the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) inside of Iraq and it seems that Administration in Washington has given a sort of approval for that. What is in return, Mr. President? Are there any guarantees that you gave that you would not invade Iraq? Are there promises from the United States that they will not establish a base in Kurdistan Iraq?
Let me first of all explain what the issue itself is, because it is important that people understand what the real matter here is. Here we have a situation where there is a neighboring country, a friendly country, who is not able to control all of its territory and for that reason there is the formation of an illegal terrorist organization, the PKK, in some part of its territory. This organization, the PKK, is declared as a terrorist organization by the United States and by the European Union. And this terrorist organization is organizing attacks from that part of the country into our country, and is targeting not only security personal but also civilians, children. So the objective here is to fight against this terrorist organization and to eliminate them.
Abdullah Gul So we first asked the Iraqi government to take necessary steps to counter the situation but they did not have the power to do that. The Americans are in Iraq, as you know, they are controlling the airspace and they have quite a presence there. We said to the Americans too that it's not sufficient to fight against the terrorists only in Basra or in Baghdad, that this had to be done across the country, and we said that if that would not be possible we would take the necessary steps but in cooperation with the coalition forces.
This was what the Americans agreed to. But to say that there is something to be asked for in return for this cooperation is absolutely out of the question because here we are talking about fighting against terrorism. This is something that the Americans are doing as well, and in this specific case they have been somewhat late in responding to this terrorist threat, and they realize this. Of course it is not always easy to attract the attention of a big country like the United States because it's dealing with so many different issues. But the President, President Bush, has confirmed to our Prime Minister Tayeb Erdogan as well as to me, that that PKK is our common enemy and we continue to fight against the PKK. So therefore they are fulfilling their responsibility as well--their responsibility to fight against terrorism.
And let me say what the main goal here, our main target and only target is the terrorist organization itself. It is not Iraq, it is not the Kurds, Iraqi Kurds, it is nothing else We don't have a hidden agenda. Our main and only goal is the terrorist organization because at the end of the day it is in our interest as well to see a stable Iraq.; We are very transparent on this point because the Iraqis are our brothers, our relatives, and their prosperity and security will only be pleasing to us.
Al-Hayat: Nevertheless Mr. President, you are crossing into another country, an independent country, militarily. So that makes it a different situation. Did you get from the Americans an okay for an open ended repeated coming in and out of Iraq? No red lines at all? Is this an ongoing invasion or did you give promises that you would not launch a full fledged invasion of Iraq?
Now why are we going across the border? Because there is a terrorist organization, which is across the border, which is coming through the border into our territory and is carrying out some massacres, killings. Most recently they exploded a bomb in public in the city of Deabroka, killing high school students. And I would like to underline here specifically that our fight will continue until we destroy the terrorist organization.
And we are very careful. We are making sure that whatever operation we organize, we do not in any way harm civilians. And that is something that we have been paying special attention to so far. We will continue to do that, and that in fact makes our job more difficult. If this was not something we were paying attention to we could have done things differently.
Let me say this, Turks, Kurds, we are a nation. We may have different ethnic backgrounds but in history too we have always lived as a nation. So there is nothing more incorrect than trying to display the Turks and the Kurds as being hostile or enemies of each other.
Al-Hayat: But Mr. President the government of Iraq is not happy with your troops crossing borders in pursuit of terrorists in Iraq. Or are they? Is there anybody in the government of Iraq who is saying to you, yes come in and eliminate. Because your word is eliminate. They are objecting to crossing into their territory.
Then I ask you the question--Is the Iraqi government, who is not able to control all of its territory, happy with providing a safe haven to an organization which organizes attacks from its territory to a country which is a brotherly country providing support and help to the Iraqi government itself?
The Israelis say, for example, from the Israeli point of view, they say Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Do you approve of the Israelis crossing over into Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah?
Well I have to stop you here right away because these are absolutely not the same case at all. We are not occupying anybody's territory.
The Israelis, according to the United Nations, withdrew from Lebanon. So when they pursue Hezbollah from their point of view they are going after a so-called terrorist organization, declared as such by the United States as well. So if we apply the same principal there--if you want to eliminate the threat coming from the so-called terrorists or terrorists--are you not establishing a precedent that is dangerous for the region?
Our topic is not the Hezbollah. After the conflict there I was perhaps the first foreign minister of a country going to Lebanon and walking on the streets, the actual streets, seeing the magnitude of the destruction, the devastation that was created as a result of the Israeli attacks. So the Lebanese people know me quite well. And I think everybody will remember the statements I made at that point, the Israelis, the Arabs, and the Lebanese.
Did you give any guarantees to the United States that you would not invade Iraq as such?
I don't need to give any guarantees because why would we consider invading a neighboring country? We are helping our neighboring country. If we indeed really wanted to hurt Iraq, our neighboring county, we could have imposed an economic embargo because from the border gate to Iraq 4,000 trucks pass every day. So if we wanted to hurt somebody that is what we would have done.
And let me say that we have no problem with the northern Iraqis. In fact so much so that when suicide bombers attacked the headquarters of Barizani and Talabani we sent planes over to transport the wounded into Turkey so they could be treated.
Now let me say this. A terrorist may be of any race or any religion or any nationality. Now if that nationality or ethnicity happens to be the same as one's own, does that mean that we help them, or what should we do? Should we not isolate them?
Mr. President, there is a lot of ground to cover here. Turkey is paying an interesting role of mediating or acting as a backchannel as its being referred to between Israel and Syria. What has been going on at that level?
We of course wish to see the peace process reach a positive end so that bloodshed and tears can subside. And why give the responsibility only to the United States? As the regional countries we too have a responsibility to help resolve the issues in our region, and I said this to President Bush, and he too wonders why everything is expected of the Americans because it's important that the regional countries are involved. It's normal that they are involved and that's what we do.
Did he agree with you on your policy of raproachment and really great relations with Syria- because I thought that the United States had a problem with Syria, particularly over Lebanon.
I think everybody has seen that first of all we have the best intentions in mind, and secondly, it is important to include Syria in the process and not isolate them… was it too bad they took place in the Annapolis conference for example.
No, but I'm talking about Lebanon, Syria's policies towards Lebanon. The United States is very much in objection to that interference whereas Turkey has not been critical of Syria's role at all.
On Syria, we are working to ensure that Syria can take on a constructive role, in the issue of Lebanon also in all the issues in the region, and that they act or help act towards finding a solution to the issues. And we are giving our recommendations to them and of course Syria has relations in Lebanon, we have to be realistic, we know their relations with the Lebanese. What's important is to ensure that these are translated into a positive step towards a solution and what we do is all in way of achieving that, and I think that in that sense it must be appreciated.
You had said that Turkey is "invested" in Lebanon. Where is your role to help Lebanon? Do you demand that Hezbollah disarms in order to avoid a state within a state and a militia parallel to an army?
Now, of course we are not an Arab country. We are not directly party to these disputes but we talk to all of the parties, the Lebanese government, different groups in Lebanon. We have, in my opinion gained their trust, their confidence, which is important because in Lebanon there is a very critical process at play at the moment. It's important that some conciliation is reached with respect to the upcoming presidential elections so that there is political stability in Lebanon. So we talked to the Syrians, the Lebanese, to (Saad) Hariri, to Hezbollah and of course we do not go into all the details of their disputes but we try to help for conciliation.
When I said invest, I meant of course the soldiers, the troops that we have in UNIFIL. We also have some social support, we have built more that 50 schools so far and the NGOs are helping, clinics have been built. So these are all the things that the Lebanese and groups in Lebanon appreciate, and this is also because of our historical and cultural ties.
But in all honesty, Mr. President you have not been forward in demanding support for the United Nations resolutions, to stop the passing of arms through the Syrian border, not only to Hezbollah but to other militias in Lebanon. There is enough said by Hezbollah and others that they are getting armaments from Iran through Syria. What is your position? Do you support that, turn a blind eye, or do you demand a stop to it?
There is no doubt that we as Turkey follow and respect the decisions of the United Nations. So there is no doubt whatsoever with that. And we are a country, which is able to control its airspace and territory, so any kind of illegal action that would be contrary to any decisions of the United Nations would be something that would be quite impossible in Turkey because we are fully respectful of the UN decisions.
By the way you did not get to answer me about exactly what is the back channel that Turkey is playing between Israel and Syria. So what exactly are you trying to do?
We have always said that the issues in the Middle East are not confined only to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. There are other dimensions to the issue that involves the Syrians and the Lebanese with Israel as well, and that should not be neglected. And for that reason we have been involved…and the Palestinians too we talked to the Palestinians as well.
But exactly what are you trying to do, between the Syria and Israel, particularly after that raid by the Israelis?
We try to help resolve their problems from time to time.
And do you have any better idea to give us about what actually happened, what did the Israelis bomb -after the Israelis went through your airspace into Syria?
We have strongly objected to their passing through our airspace and it was only for a few minutes and they apologized for crossing our airspace.
What did they bomb?
You have to ask the Syrians the answer to that question.
I'm sure Iran was an issue discussed between you and President Bush. Tell me- you are a very astute observer of what is going on: What do you smell? Do you smell a "grand bargain" in the making between Iran and the United States? Or do you feel that the potential of an American military option is still well and alive. What's your reading?
I see that the understanding that working through diplomatic means is the correct way, is more prominent.
So do you feel it is at an advanced stage, the American-Iranian dialogue?
I think this is all I could say because I don't know the details of their discussions.
And what about your relationship with Iran?
It is a neighboring country. We have different political structures, different regimes, but we are neighboring countries and we would like to pursue good neighborly relations.
But how did Iran figure in your talks with President Bush given the fact that it is not the same relationship, how did Iran figure? Did he ask you to cooperate in the issue of Iran and the American position? Or did he ask for anything particular? Did you carry any messages?
Of course President Bush knows that we are neighboring countries, knows that we have different regimes. He knows also that Turkey has been part of NATO for more than 50 years and of course in this context we too are very keen to make sure that weapons of mass destruction are not in our region as a whole.
We have a longstanding border with the Iranians since 1638 so we have been neighbors in that context and we do not intervene in each other's internal affairs and continue to pursue good relations with the Iranians.
President Bush went to the region and spoke of an "end to occupation." What will you do to help that process materialize into the making of a Palestinian State. Do you think it is really likely that we will have a Palestinian State in 2009? What do you think your obligations are as a major country in the Islamic world?
I spoke to the President before he went out on his Middle East trip and I explained to him our views, our experiences with respect to the peace process and I think its important he take the initiative and try to push hard, harder to a solution. And of course for that to happen it is also important to make sure that new settlements which do not fall in line with the Annapolis conference should be prevented, and certain positions ought to be taken vis a vis those developments. And unity of the Palestinians must also be ensured. In all of that he must be very bold and very courageous and I think if those things do happen, 2008 might be the year when this happens, but it is not only up to the Americans to do this, everybody must work for it.
Thank you very much Mr. President.